Consolidate the RVR

[Shatteredhand]

Let me first say that I dig the server, but now I have to constructively criticize it because I want to see it prosper.

I've been here 3 weeks and it has given me the ability to scratch my DAOC itch. I've leveled several characters, killed many bosses, sieged many towers, captured many keeps, and even taken all relics. The last itch I have to scratch is some good ole fashioned RvR. It's an itch I could scratch for a long while and would keep me around for a prolonged period of time, unlike the other activities I've mentioned. Even though I've captured many towers and keeps, the amount of RVR I've experienced is minimal. There's a serious problem with the current setup. Recently, Albion has been taking Midgard/Hibernia without resistance, then Midgard gets on and takes Albion with little resistance. This is PVE, this doesn't scratch my RVR itch. There is no point to this. I've gotten to RR3L5 with 90% of my rps coming from tower/keep captures (though I have no beef with bonus rps from taking structures.) I can't stay here if this is going to remain the status quo, but I am not going to depart without a fight.

More population is always nice, but you can't control it as well as you'd like. Storm does not have the population to sustain multiple RvR zones. Too much choice is not a good thing, in fact it's detrimental. When someone wants to RVR, but they don't know where to go to start participating, this is a problem. When you want to RVR but you know that even if you take dozens of towers and several keeps without anyone showing up and your resulting decision is to PVE or /quit, this is a problem. BTW, /irc !rvr is a joke, it needs to show the actual number of players. There's only two return values,"low" or "none," and this status rarely changes, bringing the usefulness of this feature in its current implementation down to zero.

I like the siege warfare as much as the next guy, but the New Frontiers is too big and it has no point at this moment. Any of the Hib, Alb, or Mid territories in NF are still too big. This warfare is an RVR model built to be sustainable on a medium-big population, but doesn't work on a small population, especially as small as storm has. A battleground RVR model is in order if there is going to be any RVR to actually take place.

It's time to talk about battlegrounds. There is Dinberg's BG. I've never seen anyone in it. It's Dinberg's PvE zone for all intents and purposes, no one that is sane goes to Dinberg's BG thinking they'll find someone to fight. Maybe open one of the other BGs, thidranki, molvik, braemar, cathal valley? Not necessarily, although I wouldn't mind it. An existing battleground could be put in place (possibly with a different BG on every server reboot) or New Frontiers could be sectioned off to make it smaller and battleground-like.

Using an existing battleground is straightforward, but doctoring NF is a different beast as it can be done in many different ways. I think using NF to Macguyver a battleground is the best option, but probably the most work. It is dynamic in that you can control the size of the area to accommodate for a larger or smaller population, and a bonus is you are not turning off NF completely (NF that is not used should be either inaccessible or labeled strictly for pve.) If anyone is from Purga, this will sound familiar; they used Agramon for this purpose. At the front of each realm's bridges into Agramon, NPCs were setup at the front to nuke the enemy realm and keep them out, behind the front area of the bridge was the area that players zoned into, and behind that were teleporters, bp merchants, and vault keepers. From each realm's bridges going forward into Agramon was any man's land. The whole island was sectioned so that you could not escape it or enter except by teleporting. If not using Agramon, you could section off one of the 3 realms' territories, so that all fighting took place in emain/hadrian's wall/odin's gate, and possibly shift the zones with every server reboot.

At the moment, it is not important whether or not siege warfare stays, that can always been changed. But it is important that there's an appropriately-sized area for people who want to RVR. A change is in order as soon as possible. In the short-term, NF could be disabled and rvr only enabled in Dinberg's BG since that's already there. This will bide time for other battlegrounds, sectioning off Agramon, or sectioning off the other realms' NF territory in the medium/long term.

Thanks for reading.

[Overdriven]

I'd like to thank you VERY much for posting this the DAY after I suggest opening them on staff forums. You've just made my life easier and I 100% agree regarding the battlegrounds. But I, like most other staff, want to keep NF open so keep work can still be done/tested by those who actually want to do it.

I was also familliar with the Purga system and a few servers also using the Agra-section-off technique, and I found it quite interesting. Since most of the action happened around the same area. BUT, this zone has now towers/keep while this is something we want.

Much thanks for posting this.

[Dinberg]

There is Dinberg's BG. I've never seen anyone in it. It's Dinberg's PvE zone for all intents and purposes, no one that is sane goes to Dinberg's BG thinking they'll find someone to fight.

Isn't that more an attitude thing? I only found out today what bits were broken in it, and I've been nagging to get svn access from poor old graveen so i can fix it up. I figure no one goes there because its in disarray right now, as I've been away for a year and havn't been able to maintain it. But personally I don't understand why people say that, then say open another zone. The same fate could befall the new zone.

Originally the plan was to close nf and move the action to battlegrounds to force people to play there, and I think it would have worked better. Ryan changed his mind a week before I got the battleground ready, and instead put rvr missions in nf; as a result no one went to the battleground at all, and everyone spent their time killing guards for easy realm points. It was largely a great deal of a waste of time for me and the few who helped me produce it. After its launch I had to commit to academic studies, and havn't been in active development since. The battleground grew a reputation for being empty.

I do agree there is a need to consolidate the rvr action - but thats what that battleground was intended to do. Why not just fix or remove the current battleground to make way for a new one? Two wont solve a problem, just make it thinner.

[Sand]

I agree with Din.

I do have to say while I am sure you made some good points in the orginal post but sorry I did not read it as it is more lengthy than my worst posts and that says a lot.

Basic summary is that I understand the concern but Din summed it up quite well, adding another is not going to fix anything.

If noone goes to Din's BG then we need to determine why and fix it. Obviously, it doesn't seem to be attracting people like it was meant to but isn't all the fault of it being broken.

More comes down to lack of promotion. I am all for opening BGs to the LIVE LEVELS, but for level 50 action, we don't want to spread it out we need to figure out how to get people to utilize what we have.

[Shatteredhand]

Everything I wrote has a point and it only takes a minute to read. I don't want to have to restate my original posts in response to every question and concern.

I do agree there is a need to consolidate the rvr action - but thats what that battleground was intended to do. Why not just fix or remove the current battleground to make way for a new one? Two wont solve a problem, just make it thinner

Dood, we're not in disagreement, did you read my last paragraph? I want to make Dinberg's the rvr zone in the short-term (read: immediately), and then in the medium or long term maybe looking into the other possibilities. I don't want to open a new zone that doesn't get used, my whole point is to close down all other rvr zones except for one, and that one COULD be dinberg's bg, it COULD be the other BGs, and it COULD be sectioned off Agramon/hadrian/emain/odin. Whatever it is, the other rvr zones need to be closed down (1 remaining), and the area size of the chosen RVR zone has to be appropriate for the population size.

Basic summary is that I understand the concern but Din summed it up quite well, adding another is not going to fix anything.

If noone goes to Din's BG then we need to determine why and fix it.

I don't think Dinberg summed me up well at all, no offense to him. My post addresses why no one goes there, and the reason is essentially people choose to go to the vast NF instead.

Obviously, it doesn't seem to be attracting people like it was meant to but isn't all the fault of it being broken.

I never insinuated as such. Dinberg and sand, please don't misunderstand, I don't have any beef with Dinberg's BG, it is just desolate because people choose to waste their time in NF. I never said it was broken, Dinberg just felt defensive and had to write about his hard work, which I understand.

More comes down to lack of promotion. I am all for opening BGs to the LIVE LEVELS, but for level 50 action, we don't want to spread it out we need to figure out how to get people to utilize what we have.

I don't know who you are arguing with because my goal is not to spread out rvr. My thread title is "Consolidate the RVR" and my post concerns ways to do it.

[Tolakram]

my whole point is to close down all other rvr zones except for one

We are here primarily to make sure the core is solid, and that means keeping NF open so the keep code can continue to be tweaked.

No strong arguments with the rest of the post, just understand we have to keep NF open.

[Charz]

New Frontiers closing is not a great idea tbh. Then you have a very small zone with no one running about. If there are people running about there would be groups of 4 or more! Definitely no chance for common-joe-soloer. Keep in mind people roam about Darkness Falls. I do not get what the fuss is about NF. Yes, it is big, but once a tower or keep is under siege you can find them like that. A Battleground ends up with none of that kind of stuff and last I checked there be 1 keep and 3 towers on some of the Battlegrounds. Geeeeessshhhh... that would make getting to RR2 a pain in the arse!

I think what is wrong with Dinberg's BG is that... well the guy with a sore throat screams about Drizzle. Now What the hell is Drizzle? oO. That is confusing because we much older players (not old as in age in life, more like Storm Age) call it Dinny's BG or Killaloe.

I think the main argument is that RvR is boring. Yes it is. It is more like Player VS HarderMobs. If people do go out there then they are playing 3 players or more. Some are actually running 2 or more accounts and for PvE I actually am looking into making a 3 man. Not the point. This kinda looks more like a person that needs a PvP server rather than a mainly PvE. Dark Age of Camelot is indeed a dying game. The old days of 1000 players in a keep take are no more. More population here would be nice... but the population of the realms is not balanced at all. 2 Hibs, 25 Albs, and 20 Mids approximation. If you can bring some buddies over here to Storm that are hib and bring back some real RvR, I would be one happy camper. But enough from me.

Ending line? I would vote New Frontiers to stay open.

[Dinberg]

Dinberg just felt defensive and had to write about his hard work, which I understand.

Nah sorry if it came across like that. I'm a cheerful guy in reality, its just unfortunately that cheer tends to get lost in the medium of written text, and so sometimes it can seem grumpy when its not. I take no offense - if it helps, read anything I write as if I'm laughing when I say it

COULD be dinberg's bg, it COULD be the other BGs, and it COULD

Understand my concern is not personal in base - that bg is well over a year old, and if I'm honest, falling apart at the seams. I'm just saying to the others we need to either remove & replace it or fix it

So I don't want anyone to be taking any of this the wrong way! Let's brainstorm. Personally I'm up for removing Drizzle, purely because maintenance seems an issue. It seems if im not around it quickly gets broken, and thats just not feasible.

[Sand]

Sorry my time is limited and I am not a fast reader and have plenty of other info to read so I skim threads a lot of the time.

Your title summed up what you want but I was more responding to the subsequent posts rather than yours specifically and the essense of my feelings on the subject.

BTW there was a previous attempt to consoldate RVR in NF, which failed because people seem to be easily confused, could not seem to grasp the concept that only towers in particular zones counted toward DF ownership, plus people continued to farm all towers.

In the end, I agree with Tola we have to leave NF open so short of getting an influx of 100+players all of a sudden I doubt much is going to change. People who want to rvr will head out to frontier and find the occasional fights. The place really doesn't matter much.

So in that end, I think let's scrap the idea of trying to make people content because as the saying goes "you can please some of the people some of the time.." I personally in pessimistic stage of you can't please anyone so I am of the opinion we should concentrate on game mechanics which would include opening BGs in their live form.

[Tolakram]

I think we can find something that helps RvR out, we just have to be loud about it.

This week, all RP's in Emain DOUBLED! and make sure people see this when they log in.

As far as a special battleground goes, same thing. Easy to port to, everyone knows about it, etc.

[Rzeszcz]

In the end, I agree with Tola we have to leave NF open so short of getting an influx of 100+players all of a sudden I doubt much is going to change.

It saddens me to a point of uncontrollable weeping to read such a words, as I agree with Shatteredhand. 100%. I was on Purga too and really liked the way RvR was working there. But I understand the reasons behind the decision as above, even if I'm not happy about it...

But:

So in that end, I think let's scrap the idea of trying to make people content because as the saying goes "you can please some of the people some of the time.."

It saddens me even more, if it's possible, more so because it's very true.

Maybe a good compromise here would be to follow Tolakram's idea ("This week, all RP's in Emain DOUBLED!") - it seems easy to implement and I think can do some good.

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Painless Sleepbringer

[Graveen]

Basically THIS is the key. We lack 2 things imho: valorization and communication.

I'm sure all the things we are discussing can be mastered with correctly applyed temporary bonuses, and be sure the players are aware of this.

Simply imagine, all rps in Dinberg's BG are x3. For 2 days. And be sure all the players are aware of this. No point to have NF open, all rvr 'll concentrate in this zone.

Definitively, a pop up windows at login can help.

[Shatteredhand]

We are here primarily to make sure the core is solid, and that means keeping NF open so the keep code can continue to be tweaked.

In the end, I agree with Tola we have to leave NF open

I don't particularly understand what you mean by NF needs to stay open. Does that mean you need people to rvr here or just that people are still able to teleport to it and explore it?

People who want to rvr will head out to frontier and find the occasional fights. The place really doesn't matter much.

Yes, there are people who do as you say, stubbornly taking towers and finding the occasional fights. I am not so stubborn, and only have limited patience when it comes to small population siege warfare. I am speaking humbly as an average player, the kind that make increased server population possible. Yeah, I have taken my share of towers and keeps, but that was because it was my first couple days in NF and being out there was exciting in itself. I won't be going out anymore to RVR just to screen NF like water at a creek---searching for golden RVR nuggets. I'll stay here another week or two see what happens. Looking at the vast white snow of Jamtland mountains, green hills of Emain, or ugly land of hadrian is not stimulating. Looking at the /rw map at the unchanging status of towers and keeps is not stimulating. If you aren't stimulated, you are bored; you stare depressingly outwards from yggdra, castle sauvage, or druim ligen at the nothingness that awaits you. However, interaction with other players is stimulating and will keep people around. You can't please everyone, but I can assure you that most people would enjoy an rvr-area tailored to their population size.

This week, all RP's in Emain DOUBLED! and make sure people see this when they log in.

Maybe a good compromise here would be to follow Tolakram's idea ("This week, all RP's in Emain DOUBLED!") - it seems easy to implement and I think can do some good.

I agree, RPs or other rewards are powerful, but they are not everything. Rewards have to be coupled with with penalties if you want compliance. This is something I was going to talk about if enclosing an NF territory was not an acceptable option, as a reward/penalty system could be a decent pseudo-confinement. Make it not just rewarding to go to Emain (or whatever chosen territory), but undesirable to be anywhere else. If you are getting 1x rps, you still have some reason to be in the other zones for rvr which spreads rvr participants even thinner. Perhaps 0x rps or even a -1 rp gained (a penalty of principle) per kill in other zones is in order.



I would just like to say that I respect what you guys are doing here, and don't want to just change this server just to make it bend to my liking. I just want a viable server with the slightest of changes implemented to facilitate that goal. Nothing is permanent, change can always be made. I would prefer a live-like server, but I think we all recognize it is not sustainable. That is why crafting is easier, exp rates are higher, and interrealm pve is allowed---all in an effort to attract and keep players here. Your team has implemented pve changes, now I am lobbying for RvR; it's an integral part of the DAOC experience.

[Tolakram]

Code: Select all

I don't particularly understand what you mean by NF needs to stay open.

The keep and tower taking functionality is part of the core and without NF open we have no way of testing it. That's all. We don't have to force people to play there IMO.

[Graveen]

Yes ShatteredHands, it is a pleasure to read solid and argumented posts.

If it is constructive, it is interesting us