Buff and Healbots

[Graveen]

Sand, /stick for same ip and in rvr only. Although i don't think this is a solution - diving in such a process is a nightmare and sounds useless for me i think it is pretty efficient for resist/heal bot.

but it was only an example of things we could discuss

[Osilon]

seems like many ppl are interested in this Topic

I'm playing bard on hib and sham on mid as main and just like i said those Bots just dmg my classes.... i buff cap with both of them which means i should normaly have 155 better stats but since everyone got buffs, Buff-Classes lost there only gain.

but what do you think about creating a Community Poll:

-Buff-Range/no stick command in RvR for same IP (resulution: no BBs/Heal-Bots)
-no stick command in RvR for same IP (resulution: no Heal-Bots)
-stay how it is

Greetings Osilon
(sry for bad english)

[Tolakram]

Moved to Storm / Feature Discussion

[Phen]

I'm opposed to any or any further modification of the code for this. I agree with Graveen's point that diving into this could be more work then expected and could be disastrous. I also want to point out what I believe is intended as forbidding bots is meant for GM interaction, which I won't get involved with, too many people to police,too many situations to mediate, time could be better spent on other issues.

And what I think the key point of this that Sand is missing is the situation where bots are, at most times unable to be interrupted from healing due to being inside a structure.Regardless though using one in a fight isn't fair and it should be condoned yet it shouldn't be forbidden.

I say leave this to the players to hash out in a civil manner.

But my key outlook on this, yes, it's okay to have a buff bot sitting at a Realm Portal Keep, if only use of it is to provide buffs nothing else.

Using a bot in rvr to keep a player healed,provide speed,or any other action is situational, will I be upset if a player is out with no opposition trying to take a keep or tower by themselves with a bot handy? no.

Will i be upset with players trying to defend against greater opposition with a bot to keep them in the fight longer?no.

Would I be upset if players are fighting a fairly equal numbered group and is using a bot or hiding a bot in a structure to heal then, yes.

[tobz]

If the goal is to provide a live-like experience, then I'd say the idea of restricting what people can do would be the total opposite of live-like. Yeah, it can suck fighting people with bots... but it's not like they are cheating. It's something everyone can do... but maybe something not everyone is *capable* of doing.

I think a better question is: if you have two players trying to take a keep, and two players trying to defend it.... why is it only bad if both of the defending characters are being played by one person instead of two? It's suddenly OK if you're getting spanked by two live players instead of one with a bot?

Food for thought.

[Kross]

i personally agree with the no /stick or /follow for people of the Same IP in RvR zones for the soul reason when a group can already overwhelm you... yet they still bring bots with them.

furthermore without the use of bots in rvr zones means 1 person cant solo a keep anylonger *or can just will take them alot longer to do so*

[Sand]

If the goal is to provide a live-like experience, then I'd say the idea of restricting what people can do would be the total opposite of live-like. Yeah, it can suck fighting people with bots... but it's not like they are cheating. It's something everyone can do... but maybe something not everyone is *capable* of doing.

I think a better question is: if you have two players trying to take a keep, and two players trying to defend it.... why is it only bad if both of the defending characters are being played by one person instead of two? It's suddenly OK if you're getting spanked by two live players instead of one with a bot?

Food for thought.

Thanks for putting my thoughts in a better format.

[Sand]

Before I comment further, I want to point out that I am not an rvrer type, I mostly pve. When I am in frontier I am just farming for something , possibly taking keeps/towers the rare occasion I get in a fight it is 99% of the time started by someone else so I am not the person everyone really has the complaint about. Also my bots tend to be right beside me thanks to /stick thus vunerable to attack.

Phen, I don't miss that bots are used in a cheap manner like hiding in a keep BUT ANYTHING that can be done with bot can be done by individual players and I see minimal difference between the two. The biggest difference that I see is that an active player can more easily move around to target the healing rather than spam a group heal thus giving you a greater chance to fight back. The other difference is that it just seems to hurt a person's ego more when the two characters are controlled by one person. To the later I say get over it, it's a game and if your beat by an opponent who is more powerful due to numbers then it's their failing rather than yours. Be proud that they had to use more toons to beat you. However, that doesn't mean you go flaming in irc with it.

What I think is worse than how bots are used in rvr is people that go around attacking lowbies or players that are otherwise vunerable, such as already in combat with something and low on health or whatever. It has happened to me plenty and is annoying at times, but I don't sit and whine all day about it or ask that rules be instituted to stop it. I do think it would have been smarter of mythic to have made greys not worth rps to discourage grey ganking but they didn't so I don't expect us to.

i personally agree with the no /stick or /follow for people of the Same IP in RvR zones

So yesterday when I was playing with my husband in frontier, I wouldn't be able to /stick him so I could say run grab a drink or go to the bathroom or vice versa? Same IP does not mean same person. I don't know how many times I need to tell/remind people of this very straight forward fact.

There is no reliable means to determine when two characters are the same person thus any attempt to curb botting is going to be a nightmare for Storm staff is what stands out for me anytime this topic comes up.

So feel free to ignore my personal desire to not have any methods to curb botting but strongly recommend heading my warning on what it will mean for Storm.

[Incompatible]

Apparently no one here knows how to buffshear or disease.

Having trouble killing that Armsman because they are buffed to the brim by a far away Cleric? Have no fear good people, because you can shear those buffs off and leave them standing naked in the cold!

Having trouble killing that Eldritch because they are being group healed by an inaccessible Bard? Have no fear good people, because you can disease that Eldritch and greatly reduce the effectiveness of incoming heals!

DAoC was designed (Very well at that) to be about counteraction. RvR is essentially a jungle-rules cage match where anything goes. It is brutal, it is messy, and it is unfair.

Artificially changing game mechanics to work with lower population servers so support classes are more viable is an absolutely terrible idea and you will see greater imbalance issues if that is to occur. There are a plethora of debuffs in DAoC that reduce the effectiveness of specific classes, if you aren't using them, you should expect to die.

Buffbots/Healbots are not the real issue here, complacent players who refuse to utilize game mechanics that overcome challenges presented is what the issue is. If I run into someone that rips my character apart, I go get a character that can beat them. You are going to frequently run into your anti-class in this game, complaining about it and requesting a very large game mechanic change will have very undesirable consequences in a time where population growth is extremely fragile.

[Nitro_Glycerine]

Time For my Two cents now.

Personally I don't see a problem with Buff bots who are just chilling at a Portal Keep.
It's when the Bot no longer remains at the PK that I have a HUGE issue.

I Strongly Dislike having to Pick between a Cleric and a Sorc for targets. If I shoot the Sorc, I get stunned by the cleric and mezzed for a minute and a half by the sorc. Stupid stupid STUPID. Not to mention, the players who do run Bots in rvr (buff/heal bots) generally have High RR or Because the bots are shoved Knee deep in the Arse of the player. This gets these Buff/heal bots access to things like DI 3 and such. Now I Sure as hell don't like the Idea of someone I normally 2-3 shot having over 8000 life.

In short; Buff bots okay only at PK, and Heal bots onoly okay if being played by an active player of a different IP.

[Incompatible]

So it is OK for me to run my healbot off my other computer with a different public IP, but not from the same computer? That makes sense.

Even if a decision was made to 'outlaw' healbots, there is absolutely no way it can be enforced. The server cannot enforce it without punishing people playing from the same physical location. Even if you did enforce it by IP, you can run your bot through a proxy or do many other things to get a different public IP address. In that case you would have to do manual bot detection, which is impossible to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that they are the same person on the other end. Acting upon suspicions and punishing based on inconclusive information is very bad administrative policy.

Every single suggestion on how to prevent this thusfar has a critical flaw in its design that punishes certain legitimate circumstances "for the greater good".

I do not disagree that players who use healbots everytime they go out into RvR are highly annoying to fight against, but there are several mechanics in this game to counteract those players and utilizing those mechanics is the best solution to combating them. I am not personally in favor of healbots, but I do not want to see hasty decisions implemented to resolve a problem that already has a solution in place. It will bring undesirable consequences which then need to be addressed as well and we get sucked into a vicious cycle where we put a bandaid on a mortal wound and find the bleeding comes out somewhere else.

[Phen]

There are no plans to institute anything to detect/prevent/forbid use of bots.

This train has kinda run off the tracks.

This post should just be viewed as a public notice that some players want to deter others from using bots in RvR... plain and simple. And I think Nitro was saying he has no problem with someone playing a healer/buffing class as long as it's two different people, not necessarily from separate IP's.

[Sand]

Time For my Two cents now.

Personally I don't see a problem with Buff bots who are just chilling at a Portal Keep.
It's when the Bot no longer remains at the PK that I have a HUGE issue.

I Strongly Dislike having to Pick between a Cleric and a Sorc for targets. If I shoot the Sorc, I get stunned by the cleric and mezzed for a minute and a half by the sorc. Stupid stupid STUPID. Not to mention, the players who do run Bots in rvr (buff/heal bots) generally have High RR or Because the bots are shoved Knee deep in the Arse of the player. This gets these Buff/heal bots access to things like DI 3 and such. Now I Sure as hell don't like the Idea of someone I normally 2-3 shot having over 8000 life.

In short; Buff bots okay only at PK, and Heal bots onoly okay if being played by an active player of a different IP.

I will way again same IP does not equal same person. Given that people who play the game with friends/family have a high chance of having same ip and grouping together, any attempt to use ip as a way to guage who is a bot and who is a live player is utterly flawed.

[Charactraus]

in addition, we could really discuss quick fix, such as no /stick command for player on the same ip in RvR zones, or whatever you could propose

I am so against this it is not even funny. What if I had my Bf, a friend, or my dad/mom over and they wanted to play... Are you telling me that I should USE Tor just so I can stick to them if I were going bio or don't feel like moving around manually? You are taking away a fundamental right of the game; The right to /stick.

Sure, buffbots in portal keeps are fine, but those who use a healbot in a tower... They suck. However, I can perfectly see why they would use a blockbot or w/e if they are highly outnumbered.

The question I have for you guys is how you will enforce it. Taking away certain rights to players is not how you do it. You lose players. You would definitely lose me if I were to have /stick removed. Considering I have certain urges to be at a friend's house and be on their IP instead. (Maybe it has to do with lagless Internet)

[Argo]

As Phen allready stated a little further above: There are no plans to institute anything to detect/prevent/forbid use of bots. This is only a discussion, thus no need to get that much offensive.

kind regards
Argo