Buff and Healbots

[Oxydean]

We aren't going to have a no buffbot policy , If you want to play exactly like live you can pay $12.95 and play on live.

5 stars , thumbs up ... Tola

[THE_Wolfman]

Time for me to write another one of my famous (or is it infamous?) books!!!

Questions and Answers

In my opinion Buff-/Heal-Bots are damaging every Buff/Heal Class. Everytime i try to get some people from Uthgard on Storm they stop think about joining me on Storm when i mention there are Buff-/Heal-Bots.

People like to win, and in a combat based game like DAoC, the only ways to win with a buff/heal class are to neglect buffing/healing in favor of making combat improvements, play the buff/heal class only when groups are available, or 'bot' the buff/heal class. Remove one of those options and you really will damage every buff/heal class. People should also consider that the buff/heal classes have already been reduced in importance by adding NPC buff casters in many locations on Storm.

By the way, Uthgard did not gain its popularity by banning the use of 'bots'. Other servers have had similar rules, IP checks, and buffbot detection tests done by staff. Uthgard built up a following by making the old (original) frontiers available, while everyone else (including Storm) used the new frontiers. They simply offered something that nobody else did.

In any case Uthgard is not Storm, and Storm should not try to be Uthgard.

However, the exploration of ideas can be worthwhile so let's look at the ones you proposed...

-Forbid double log in RvR
-Forbid Buff-/Heal-Bots in RvR (buff range)
-Forbid Heal-Bots in RvR

Basically, all of these suggestions depend on the ability to verify multiple connections from a single source. That is a HUGE problem! The only information you really have to work with will be accounts which can be created by anyone from anywhere, and the IP address for each connection which can be masked/spoofed in a number of ways.

As I write this, I have six accounts which were all set up at different times over a connection that has a changing (DHCP) IP, and there is no easy way to prevent that, so we cannot rely on using accounts to filter double logins except for attempts to log in on an account that is already logged in. I also happen to have six computers within my arms reach. As far as Storm can detect, they all have the same IP currently, even though one of the computers has 12 IP addresses assigned to it which are split across the 2 network adapters in it. So limiting my IP to one connection would achieve your proposed goal... until Sand decides to play. Did I mention that three of those computers within my arms reach are hers?

So yesterday when I was playing with my husband in frontier, I wouldn't be able to /stick him so I could say run grab a drink or go to the bathroom or vice versa? Same IP does not mean same person. I don't know how many times I need to tell/remind people of this very straight forward fact.

Hopefully this illustrates part of the problems with your suggestions so far.

That leaves your final idea...

-Stay how it is

Simple, yet elegant. There is no work to it, and we get 'Live' like results. I think we have a winner!

i personally agree with the no /stick or /follow for people of the Same IP in RvR zones" and "furthermore without the use of bots in rvr zones means 1 person cant solo a keep anylonger

It would be just as easy to have Storm detect 6 different IPs from just one PC, as it is to have Storm only detect one IP from the six PCs currently in this room. An IP check along with a region/zone check will not prevent multiple logins. All it will do is upset a number of players who play together over a shared internet connection (ICS, cheap routers, complex routers with basic configurations, etc.).

The real question is... once you remove the ability of a person to solo a keep by taking away their bot, what will they do then, especially when the server population is low? Log out? Go looking for another server? Quit out of boredom?

I seriously think that Bots of any kind (other than buff bots) are wrong.

While I agree that Speed/Block/Stun/Mezz/Heal/DPS/Distraction bots definately have an effect on the outcome of a battle, the problem I see with your logic is that buffs also have an effect on the outcome of a battle. Even with buffbots assigned to each NF portal keep, there will still be cases of those that have, and those that have not (classes lacking buffshears, lack of coin, etc.). It is the same problem, in a different form.

Tell me how people running stick trains to keep them alive motivates new starting players to stay with Storm.

The answer is simple, and oddly enough, provided by yourself when you said

I would watch them an learn what makes them better than me and adapt my play style to include theirs.

and

So sure run all the stick bots you want (as long as they are governed without 3rd party programs as per server rules) I'll kill your whole train. Free Rps ftw.

New players (and old) will have a chance to see (watch) and try (learn) another play style that offers its own challenges. They will have a chance to see (watch) and try (learn) some class combinations that work well together in a group. Allowing people to have 'bots' also allows potential raid leaders to familiarize themselves with encounters that normally require a group, prior to leading a raid for other players.

More characters online means there is the potential for additional targets to be available in RvR areas, which in turn means there is also the potential for faster character growth through RP gains.

Allowing 'bots' has never been a threat to DAoC, or the DOL based private servers. Every time EA/Mythic nerfs a part of the game, players leave. Every time EA/Mythic has consolidated their 'Live' servers "to keep the high population needed for a healthy server/game", their player base has shrunk drastically. Bossiney, Devon, and Killibury were not servers... they were server clusters, comprised of 3 classic servers, 10 standard servers, and 7 standard servers respectively, for a total of 20 servers. Now they run 10 ToA servers in one cluster called Ywain and transfers to it are mandatory. Removing options from players is what will kill DAoC, and it is not likely to help DOL either.


Food for Thought
There is a reason why staff members on Uthgard still have to perform 'detection tests', and there is a reason (beyond money) why Mythic, and later EA/Mythic, never tried to ban 'bots'. There is no simple way to determine if a human being is playing a character!

The original goal of DOL was to create a server which emulated the 'Live' (Mythic) server, and allow for later customization. The original goal for Storm was to provide the DOL developers with place to test their code, show the public the progress on the emulator, and have some fun. I recommend the development team getting back on track to those goals, and leave 'solving the bot problem' to folks that like to waste their time.

[Osilon]

I don't know but i think the goal is not to be "Live-like" since most of the people play here because in theire opinion Live-servers did many mistakes. I don't want to say Live is crap but i think Free-shards don't have to make the same mistakes.
In my opinion the goal is to get a nice and fair RvR situation which give especialy new player a chance (since we could realy need some new player)

[Charactraus]

As Phen allready stated a little further above: There are no plans to institute anything to detect/prevent/forbid use of bots. This is only a discussion, thus no need to get that much offensive.

kind regards
Argo

*sorry for a bit of necroing for a few pages back*

I apologize, I had the postreply page loaded up for an incredibly long time. I didn't think the topic would move a couple of posts. I think I may start using Chrome to it's full potential- Actually running tabs instead of feeling stuck to IE6 (which is what I am used to still).

We aren't going to have a no buffbot policy...

Where is a "like button" for this?
(Can that be a suggestion? /mememe)


Also, kudos Wolfman, I managed to get through your entire post and I think you really did close the book on the proposed suggestion... Although I guess it was closed a book and a half ago when we saw that there would be no policy coming from Tola himself.

And, Osilon, this server was founded on the principals to be live-like. However, the custom additions (Dinberg's BG instance system, I50, and D2) are something that are set in to kind of take live a step further. It shows creativity and colours instead of being a boring-grey live server. I am pretty sure if they could, EA/Mythic would gladly add other things to the game if they were not afraid to dwindle the population... and their cash further. Probably explains why no one has really heard of a new expansion yet... And EA is busy ruining other games while Mythic is shuffling to keep WAR in tact. I will also pull off a low blow and say that more people play live than on all the DOL shards combined. So live must not be too much on the absolute crap side. No offense to DOL or Storm.
All of that offtopic bs aside, Storm is more or less a custom-live-like server, and will not go as far as to go off live's ruleset. And as mentioned earlier, Storm does not have the manpower to start enforcing bans on bots.

[THE_Wolfman]

I don't know but i think the goal is not to be "Live-like" since most of the people play here because in theire opinion Live-servers did many mistakes.

I don't mean to sound rude or nasty, but I do know the original goals of the DOL and Storm projects. I may have taken a few 'breaks', but I have been involved with DOL and Storm from the beginning (June 2003).

DOL was started by Corillian, who invited Archangel (for web work), then myself (for scripting). About a month later Smallhorse joined us (wrote DAOCLogger, DOLLoader) . There was no scripting engine yet when I joined, so I started working on packets and the core. Archangel set up our site, and started promoting the idea of hosting a server to show off our work. Smallhorse made tools and helped us make progress all over the place. Corillian coded, looked for others to help out, and learned to live without sleep.

I could write a couple books...

Suffice it to say, I know what goals were set because I was one of the folks involved in making the decisions. The decision to emulate the "Live" servers was made for simple and logical reasons:

1. It gives us something to compare our work to. (ie: Have we done it right?)
2. It saves a ton of support. (ie: Players can use online guides, Prima books, etc. for game information.)
3. It gives a base for customization. (ie: We can modify existing code and data to provide new content faster.)

In my opinion the goal is to get a nice and fair RvR situation which give especialy new player a chance (since we could realy need some new player)

While getting nice and fair RvR may be your personal goal (and possibly the goal of others), developers must look at a much bigger picture that encompasses all PvE, RvR, and PvP elements.

I respect your right and the right of others to have opinions, however I cannot ignore facts. One fact is that the DAoC client that runs on a player's PC cannot detect if a human being is sitting at the keyboard, and thus cannot inform the DOL server (Storm or any other) if a human being is sitting at the keyboard. Another fact is that if the client cannot detect if a human being is sitting at the keyboard, and our policy (for legal reasons) is to not modify the DAoC client, then the requested customization will have to be made outside the client but still pass information to the DOL server (specifically Storm). Placing it in the DAoCPortal application will not work as it is not required to make a connection to DOL servers (command line or a simple batch file can also be used), so that leaves just one place... DOLLoader and we cannot put the customization there because it would affect all DOL servers.

As I said earlier, developers must look at a much bigger picture, and I have. I'm not dismissing you, your opinions, or your goal. I'm being realistic and honest with you.

Also, kudos Wolfman, I managed to get through your entire post and I think you really did close the book on the proposed suggestion... Although I guess it was closed a book and a half ago when we saw that there would be no policy coming from Tola himself.

Thanks for the kudos! I tried to get Tola to be my editor a while back but... I think he would rather debug a gig of code writen in upsidedown wingdings than edit one of my 'books'.

And, Osilon, this server was founded on the principals to be live-like. However, the custom additions (Dinberg's BG instance system, I50, and D2) are something that are set in to kind of take live a step further. It shows creativity and colours instead of being a boring-grey live server.

You've got it Charactraus. Because Storm was set up to provide the DOL developers with place to test their code and show the public the progress on the emulator, it followed the goals of DOL, which were to create a server which emulated the 'Live' (Mythic) servers, and allow for later customization. As time passed, more features of the 'Live' servers were emulated in DOL, like instancing, which could be compared to the 'Live' servers and can also serve as a base for customizations like Dinberg's BG.

As DOL matures I expect more features of the 'Live' servers to be emulated, and I also expect that the DOL developers will continue to create further 'tests' of DOL's capacity for customization and show it on Storm. If I'm right, that means Storm is the place where the DOL developers (and friends ) will be coming to have some fun... and that would fufill the original goals of Storm.

[Langtre]

Ok, Back on track again. Most people doent like /StickBots in RvR. More dislike it, than like it. I agree with no action on this as far as coding goes. I wont say anything about it in /irc, i will just go do something else. Thanks for playing - - and have a nice day !!!

[baradien]

Ok, Back on track again. Most people doent like /StickBots in RvR. More dislike it, than like it. I agree with no action on this as far as coding goes. I wont say anything about it in /irc, i will just go do something else. Thanks for playing - - and have a nice day !!!

lol

[Tolakram]

To be clear ... what I said for Storm is that the GM on at the time should be able to decide the rules. No code, but if we have a player with 3 autobots killing everyone and driving people off the server then tell them to stop. If it's a population destroying situation then take care of it. I could care less what the botted player thinks.

[Khloee]

To be clear ... what I said for Storm is that the GM on at the time should be able to decide the rules. No code, but if we have a player with 3 autobots killing everyone and driving people off the server then tell them to stop. If it's a population destroying situation then take care of it. I could care less what the botted player thinks.

*Raises hands to the sky* HE HAS SPOKEN!

[Nitro_Glycerine]

Pwn't

[Sand]

There is no legitmate way to stop use of bots. You cannot know who is a "bot" versus an afk player unless the person doesn't try to hide it. IP addresses don't do it because people who live together will play together and thus share an ip.

I appreciate the concerns, in general, but it's the nature of storm normal servers.

I think the most legitimate being the fact that it hurts the playability of support classes which is why I didn't fully support the buff npc providing the high end buffs they do though there can still be helpful to have support classes with you for resists/heals and rebuffing.

The whole "fairness" arguement is less so but valid due to low pop. Yes obviously a unbuffed player (other than say a warden/friar who don't really need them) stands little to no chance against a player with a bot whether it is a bot at keep or not. Thing is the game is designed for RVR, not 1v1, and so isn't even balanced 1v1 so certainly not going to be balanced if it is essentially 1v2 because one of them is benefiting from a bot. If you rvr alone you unfortunately will consistently get yourself dead. (I did this on live and did not complain about bot as I didn't care if it was multiple players or one person playing multiple toons, I was dead, I had bots on live but didn't take them out to rvr because I could not run them effectively in that situation so more power to those that can imo) Problem with Storm is the low population forces you to mostly go it alone. The thing is this is why though we have the npc buffers to help those who prefer not to, or do not have computers to run multiple accounts.

There is a flip side though, allowing bots also compensates for the lack of players so that people can get something done, like take a tower (which typically cannot be done completely solo, some classes and/or if tower is low level it can but talking typically here).

The only issue I really have against bots is that they player needs to be actively running them, and not using macros or other hardware means to automate it as those are against the games tos/eula. This is something we can't really detect or prove either but still just think we need to ensure that is the stance.

As long as people are actively controlling their characters there is a drawback to use of multiple contents as it will not typically double your effectiveness to run 2 compared to what 2 good players can do because controlling the movements of multiple characters is a difficult task.

Best I can personally can manage is having a bot stuck to my ass and healing or possibly guarding me, as a result decent solo players can take me out, even if I am running 3 (sometimes 3 makes me easier target because I am too distracted that I don't play either character well). Yes I bot, and since having the capability to run 3, I do but never am on the offensive against players. I try to defend if someone attacks me, but generally I am in frontier to take towers or df to kill mobs so am not seeking a fight.

There are better multiaccount loggers than me certainly but as someone who does so, there are a number of difficulties making them less powerful than people think.

Also, keep in mind that accounts are free you can have as many as you like. If you can't sorry, if you don't want to or unable to do so effectively, suck it up if you are going to play here.

This is a normal server (with respect to rvr, though we have pve elsewhere), not a classic server, this is way it is on live so imo people need to accept it.

[Sand]

What the heck, I just necroed a really old post, can someone lock this please, if I can't.

I come and view posts by selecting new posts and saw this and thought it was another round of complain about bots.

I didn't have time to read through so just started with my speal.