Weapon damage issues - slow weapons vs fast

[Tolakram]

Here's the problem as I see it.

D2 allows increased attack speed, but the speed is capped due to the client not being able to handle attack rates above a certain speed. This ends up making slower weapons more powerful than faster weapons due to the speed cap. Casting speed caps get around this issue, mostly, by checking for both overall casting speed cap and having a speed reduction cap.

For example,

a spell that takes 5 seconds to cast. The casting speed cap is .5 seconds, but the reduction cap is 4 seconds, so you will never be able to cast this spell faster than 1 second.

Weapons don't have this restriction.

A 4 speed one handed sword will be capped at .5 after factoring in melee speed increase. So you can swing this sword 2 times a second.

A 6 speed two handed sword will also cap at a max of 2 swings a second, but because the original speed is slower more damage will be done per swing, making it hit much harder than the one handed sword. This problem needs to be fixed to make one handed and dual wield a valid choice.

Dual wield, IMO, should be as powerful as two handed.

One handed with shield should be slightly less powerful in exchange for the added defense.

So how do I solve this issue? Should we add a speed reduction cap so two handed weapons don't swing as fast as one handed? I don't like this idea because it makes two handed unfun, and the overall damage output will decrease. IMO I need some sort of damage mitigation that raises damage of one handers as a calculation of how "capped" the swing speed is. I just need to figure out what kind of equation will do this.

[Tolakram]

Well, first idea failed.

Code: Select all

int qui = Math.Min(250, Quickness); //250 soft cap on quickness

if (bowWeapon)
{
// no archery bonus, this is calculated in spell handler for new archery
speed *= (1.0 - (qui - 60) * 0.002);
}
else
{
// --- .62 with max QUI --- ---- .155 with max meleespeed
// 30 = 4.65
// 40 = 6.2
// 50 = 7.75
speed *= (1.0 - (qui - 60) * 0.002) * 0.01 * GetModified(eProperty.MeleeSpeed);
}

Only a 3.0 weapon will be capped (D2 speed cap is set to 5), so speed does not seem to be the issue, unless the cap is too low and the actual swing speed is higher than this, which is possible. I doubt it, but it could be the server is limited to how often it can process a weapon swing, regardless of the cap.

[Tolakram]

Perhaps the solution here is to break away from the DAoC speed calculations and reduce the real speed reductions so all weapons fall within the possible swing speeds. It seems to me the melee speed bonus needs to remain the same ... 75% increase in swing speed should really be a 75% increase, but perhaps quickness should have less of a factor than it does now.

original equation:

Code: Select all

// --- .62 with max QUI --- ---- .155 with max meleespeed
// 30 = 4.65
// 40 = 6.2
// 50 = 7.75
speed *= (1.0 - (qui - 60) * 0.002) * 0.01 * GetModified(eProperty.MeleeSpeed);

Code: Select all

speed *= (1.0 - (qui - 60) * 0.001) * 0.01 * GetModified(eProperty.MeleeSpeed); // = .2 for max quickness and melee speed

// 30 = 6.07
// 40 = 8.1
// 50 = 10.125

I think the key is to find the actual client/server limited swing speed, and then understand what weapon speeds are being capped. I also need to make sure players understand the relationship of swing speed to damage per swing. Everyone thinks Two Handed weapons do the most damage because they do the most damage per hit, but if the swing speed is really slower then the overall DPS should be equivalent to a faster weapon doing less damage per swing. A DPS test mob would be nice to have, where you say start and stop and the mob tells you the DPS number.

Next, there's the issue of damage done by D2 specials on a per swing basis. The melee AoE skills all do damage based on weapon damage, so they works as expected. Fire, Cold, Lightning damage is a fixed amount per swing, so IMO it's possible to do more overall damage by swinging 2 weapons very fast.

Let's assume we have +200 to fire damage and a 100% change to fire it. A 2 handed weapon swinging once a second will simply add 200 fire damage to the attack every second. Two weapons swinging once every half second, and assuming a 50% left hand swing chance, should add an average of 600 damage per second (200 per swing + 200 for a single left hand swing)!

Why am I not hearing complaints that dual wield is overpowered?

[Roozzz]

I haven't played in quite a while tbh, but afaik the mechanics have not changed. I used to play a dual wield vamp, the dual wield damage was not that great. I used to depend on shock and awe to kill random mobs, and my claw spam to kill bosses. For straight up damage 2h was better.

But (a big but) this was on a character with decent gear, but nowhere near what is possible nowadays with hell mode, socketwrenches etc. So the procs didn't really do that much damage. I surely would not rely on them to kill bosses.

[Tolakram]

I found the error.

D2 base attack speed starts out faster than normal, which drives all weapons to the cap faster than I was calculating. Working on a solution.

[Bidyoufarewell]

i understood the dilema of just making all weapons super slow and creating a rediculous amount of dmg out put. as a quick fix vs. creating more problems adding as you did the normal say .5 to each weapon seems to have made the difference in several of the chraacters im familiar with and in fact over powered others in the process. ive been around daoc for a very long time as many people on dol have. with the stat lvls we have capable here with near 900 str on a troll the shear lack of any ooomph to the zerks hits caused me to question it. i played several other characters that i have also played for a very long time taking into consideration mob lvl, stats, character spec. i know raising spd on weapons was not a final fix, but at least something to ease the strain of a cleric/ healer/ sham semi melee spec'd trying to do a boss.
i sat painfully for nearly 20 minutes one day watching a melee spec cleric trying to do baal. i offered assistance and was turned away so i backed off. it was as if baal got bored and literally from out of my clip range came charging at me at the entrance of his lair. i was scorned by the player stating i did something when in fact i did nothing. i was simply standing out of range semi-afk reading on the other side of my screen waiting for the next spawn.
i know obviously taking the time to fix something correctly is the approach that should be taken. i also know that d2 cant take every waking moment of the admin's life to make everything perfect. in short i saw raising the speeds .3- .5 to be a decent alternative that would be relatively painless on all sides. we do appreciate the time you spend working and fixing things on d2.

thank you

[Tolakram]

I have a fix incoming for this.

Basically, when using faster weapons, you will be compensated for the damage when the speed drops below cap. This will be adjustable live. Once this is done, a fast hitting dual wielder should be able to do more damage than a two handed weapon, simply because effects will be firing 1.5+ times per hit due to wielding two weapons.

I'll increase the overall speed boost right now to fix the 'too slow' issue.

[Bidyoufarewell]

i tested my zerk, hunter and valk. zerk dmg output vs mobs like ancients through the hallways up to and including baal was noticeably different. the dmg output seemed to be at a point that dual wielders have a chance. i was impressed with the ability of the zerk dual wielding to take on baal vs. the last few experiences i had with him. i didnt cringe once i started the fight. i felt it was well within the limits of what a zerk with the stats i have to do what he did. it was actually fun again.

valk i used several times in NF taking beno keep and diablo3. the fight was more interesting to say the least. door dmg seemed a tad high but the overall fight with diablo3 wasnt just a walk up and hit a few times and done. actually had to use some pots. good dmg output... little high on keep doors though.

hunter was also good. bow dmg was at expected levels, 1h sword was also within the limits i felt appropriate for his stats. 2h sword was also good and fairly consistent with what his 2h sword dmg output should be.

did well tola, thank you for the fixes.

[Bidyoufarewell]

did much further caster related dmg testing today while i plvl'd another character. normal mode arena lvln from pygmies showed a pretty considerable lower dmg output. before the updated changes to dps figures, my cleric would more then often 2 hit kill yellow con pygmies sometimes 3 depending on crit lvls. i have actually improved upon the template he is using since the changes and noticed that now its taking me 4-5 casts with cap crits to kill these same mobs. magic dmg does still seem a bit low. tested also using lock, vw casting spec / spell echo, enchanter and animist.

thanks