Block rate problems

[Kakuri]

How do people feel about the current shield block rates in DOL?

I was frustrated with how worthless a small shield is compared to a large shield (they should be identical in 1v1), so I started digging through the code & doing some logging, and I discovered the server doesn't do a very good job of keeping track of how many enemies are attacking you. Often times when I'm in 1v1 the server thinks I've got 3 enemies. With a small shield, this means you've got 1/3rd the chance to block that you normally would. With a large shield, your chance to block against 1 or 3 enemies is the same, so you wouldn't notice... but when you've got 3 or less and the server thinks you have more, then even with a larger shield you suffer reduced block rates.

So, the first issue is hopefully we can figure out how to do a better job of keeping track of how many attackers a GameLiving has. My quick fix for now has just been to count them when calculating the block chance, which leaves any other methods that depend on having an accurate count of attackers still vulnerable to the bug.

The second issue is how much should your block rate be decreased by additional attackers? Off the top of my head, 5% sounds about reasonable. Maybe 10% if you want to be really harsh. Turns out these are fantastical carebear lovegifts compared to the current code. Each additional attacker is added to the divisor which castrates your block chance.

The chart below shows the rate your chance to block drops with each additional attacker.
The red line is how the current DOL code works.
The blue line is what it would be like if each extra attacker knocked 5% off your block rate.

BlockChance.gif (4.6 KiB) Viewed 2429 times

As you can see, within just the first few extra enemies your block rate plummets, which seems rather unfair to me.

I haven't been able to find any info on Mythic's block rates, and the comments in the code (which generally have a nice amount of formulas and weblinks) only specify the following:
//Each attacker above these numbers will reduce your chance to block.

[Dunnerholl]

one thing i remember is that dual wielders used to half the blocking rate on small shields, cause they would count as 2 attackers. this is fixed now. but i think from this is the theory about that factor.

however i think u need to differentiate between rvr and pvm blockrate.

for rvr seems reasonable to block worse a lot with every enemy more attacking you. this is also my experience.

where on another side versus mobs with paladin i had no problem to block vs 10 oranges, but i think there is something like an effectiveness influencing this.

our pvm is still a very open field in those respects (i mean much work to be done)

[stephenxpimentel]

i like it alot. I Think this would be a good thing to fix!

I Also (not sure on how it is on Live), think it should affect mob BAF? (Bring a Friend), i know its calculated by players in attackers group, however i think that if alot of people get on a mob, its supposed to "call for help" and in turn - BAF.

[Graveen]

BAF is in a brain, certainly SMB.

I guess Kakuri this is long time running combat bug persisting: the tables are not really correctly updated, or we track 2 times same info (mob have a list of the attackers + another list of aggro or perhaps this is the player tracking who is attacking him etc.... -> it sounds confuse).

The SMB should be flattened imho, this is where the # attackers should be computed. Perhaps simply looking in the mobs aggro table if you are existing - this is different to the players attacked so suffering maluses (ie a group member is aggroed: mob take entire group in its aggrotable, but is attacking only one...)

For the calculations, i have really no idea since recent changes updated theses, but i suggest to strictly conform livelike. Perhaps Uthgard can help us about this, they made numerous tests about this, and Thrydon/Metty made us a proposal to share this if needed; after we should implement recent changes.
i suggest put the base block rates in SP for the whole cases:
- rvr bloc cap
- rvr dual wield bloc cap
- efficiency or pve ? (imho not necessary, but why not)
- etc...

[Dunnerholl]

imo the red line looks good, the blue is insane i would have with small shield 60% blockchance vs 9 enemies?

maybe really fix at first the number of actual attackers and see how it behaves for you then?

[Dunnerholl]

as for pvm, the con resp level difference of mobs has a HUGE effect on the effectiveness. this is whats missing

[Kakuri]

The only difference I'm aware of Mythic making between PvP and PvE blockrates is the cap, which was recently set to 75% for PvP. I don't know if they cap PvE, DOL currently has block rate capped at 99% (no differentiation between PvP/PvE).

All forms of defense are generally better against mobs than players - presumably this is because mobs have low weaponskill. If they had as high WS as players, PvE wouldn't really be fun.

I don't know if a linear calculation would be good (the blue line), but the sharp drop-off of the current calculations (red line) seems crazy. I don't know how it compares to live - would be nice if we had some data. I think a line somewhere between the red and blue would be good.

Keep in mind this graph does not represent your block rate - block rate is calculated based on a bunch of factors. The graph represents how much the calculated block chance is reduced by the presence of extra attackers. If your calculated block chance is 100%, then this graph shows how adding attackers affects it. But if you start with a 70% chance, at the 9 attackers point you end up with 60% of 70%, or a 42% chance.

as for pvm, the con resp level difference of mobs has a HUGE effect on the effectiveness. this is whats missing

What do you mean? What are you talking about?

[alex_speed]

All formulas in dol have been tested on live server (not recent tests). Remember that DOL should be live like.
Your line is obviously linear, which is not real, make some tests on live servers before changing anythings.

[Dunnerholl]

as for pvm, the con resp level difference of mobs has a HUGE effect on the effectiveness. this is whats missing

What do you mean? What are you talking about?

i mean for example you can block 10 blue mobs better than 10 yellow.

it could be a ws stuff too than this factor is a ws modifier. i didnt check any code, just from your post it seems like # of attackers screws your blockrate a lot no matter who are those attackers actually attacking you.

i dont want to do those tests, they are time consuming and i am currently working on crafting, maybe at a later point i can check this.

[stephenxpimentel]

lol ok i wanna just say that i made block bots on the mythic PvE server.... And this is my experience with blocking MOBS

50 shield spec - 6% block bonus - +10ish i'd say Shields - Mastery of Blocking 4

I could GUARD on about 10 red/grapes and the person i was guarding wouldnt get hit once. This goes for their PvE keeps aswell... This might not help too much but i think it will give u an understanding of blocking mobs.. con doesnt particularly matter too much, i personally think it goes off of something else on the mob.. like their str or something maybe.

[Dunnerholl]

lol ok i wanna just say that i made block bots on the mythic PvE server.... And this is my experience with blocking MOBS

50 shield spec - 6% block bonus - +10ish i'd say Shields - Mastery of Blocking 4

I could GUARD on about 10 red/grapes and the person i was guarding wouldnt get hit once. This goes for their PvE keeps aswell... This might not help too much but i think it will give u an understanding of blocking mobs.. con doesnt particularly matter too much, i personally think it goes off of something else on the mob.. like their str or something maybe.

witch such ultraspec....

try it with plain 50 shields and u will very well se a difference.

anyway mb u are right and mobs have a ws, wich is anyway modified by con inside then too

[Sand]

The block rate per mob doesn't really change by number of mobs. Bear with me for a moment as that seems counter to how things work in practice.

The size of the shield determines how many attackers one can block per round, so the block chance per mob doesn't actually diminish by mob numbers, just that if you use a small shield and you block the next attack that round has 0 chance to be blocked.

Of course this number of attackers do not apply to guard, each mob attacking your target has same block chance.

In practice if you have more mobs trying to attack the guardee, the more times they get interupted but it simply is because more attacks coming in.

If 1 mob is attacking you with a 90% block rate, you get hit 1once every combat round (assuming no other defenses), but if you have 10 mobs attacking you 1 of them is going to get through each round.

How to actually code that, I am kinda of at a loss, but don't think Storm is setup right for it.

There is also block caps for small shields in PVE of 80% (90% for medium, 99% for large) that will make them less useful than larger shields, but mostly the effect will be felt with multiple attackers.

RVR cap on live is currently 60% I do believe and applies to all shield sizes.

[stephenxpimentel]

lol ok i wanna just say that i made block bots on the mythic PvE server.... And this is my experience with blocking MOBS

50 shield spec - 6% block bonus - +10ish i'd say Shields - Mastery of Blocking 4

I could GUARD on about 10 red/grapes and the person i was guarding wouldnt get hit once. This goes for their PvE keeps aswell... This might not help too much but i think it will give u an understanding of blocking mobs.. con doesnt particularly matter too much, i personally think it goes off of something else on the mob.. like their str or something maybe.

witch such ultraspec....

try it with plain 50 shields and u will very well se a difference.

anyway mb u are right and mobs have a ws, wich is anyway modified by con inside then too

thats what i'm thinking because on special mobs, like dragon and stuff - i hardly ever block, yet on a level 75ish mob i block about 75% of the time maybe more.

[Dunnerholl]

regarding our many different opinions i think this can only be solved by testing

[Sand]

Actually con matters a lot on block rates, just all the bonuses you put in mob5, and 50 shield..etc put you over 100% block chance so that when the block rate is reduced to level you are still near 100% blocking so see little to no difference with yellows and purples unless it is a very high purple. Try comparing block rates on different mob levels for a toon that doesn't have much of that.

Also when rvr is involved you have that players weapon spec, and weapon bonus and style to hit bonuses that will factor in so, it is harder to achieve cap blocking on a player compared to a mob but people were acheiving near 100% block rates in rvr so in came block cap. I forget the status on the whole duel wield thing, they flip flopped on that, I think in the end they don't get the advantage they use to and that is why even with the 75% block cap they were still complaining and in cmae the 60% one.

While we are talking about block rates, like to ask about the engage code. Where did the info that it adds 85% to the block chance? That maybe correct but seem to recall testing engage before on my tic who doesn't have very high shield and not super dex, and don't think her blocking was that high and I did my testing in a td thus even con mobs.

Next point about engage is that when you implement the block caps, you have to make sure to allow them to not apply when you are engaging.

Final point, engage code seems to be lacking the you can't engage a target that is below 75% health. It should give a message about being enraged I believe or something like that and can't be engaged right now, it doesn't cancel the effect , just doesn't work until mobs health gets back up above 75% again.