WhyWhyWhy...

[pyrite1978]

I have a few questions, comments, concerns..

1 Databases

1a Why so stingy? If you have a DB or scripts that works, and resolve many issues others are having, SHARE THEM!!
Stop directing people to posts from 1803 that in absolutely no way pertain to a current build! No one is gonna steal your playerbase! I mean there are.. what, 2 servers right now? Well.. one really.. with any kinda population.. And if someone DOES steal your playerbase, it is not because they are using your DB otherwise the servers would be the same. If you lose playerbase, its cause you are doing something not popular with said playerbase. There is no reason not to be helpful to others.

1bClassic sucks! .. Sure we all like to get nostalgic, and play like we did on 2002.. But frankly, the OF, classic style game is not superior. Maybe TOA was a bit much in terms of encounters, and maybe instancing took the social out of the game.. but these are definitely optional! Why can we not have a live like server to play on? why are we always bombarded with heavily modified, or completely outdated versions of DAoC.. Cant we have a server, on a good connection with a mature staff that is not dedicated to making our life hell??


2 Forum resources

2aForum death? Has the forum died? It takes an awful long time to get any response these days... yet I see plenty people are reading posts.. I have to assume these are all people with the same issues as the individual that posted. As they all read, but few comment... except to direct the poster, to some post made 8 years ago. which ultimately has nothing to do with the problem from a present day, up to date perspective.

2bDownloads.. I see we have a user file section. .. But when ya look deeper into these files, they are either terribly outdated, or just plain broken.. It seems there is no real QC taking place.. Is this the case? It seems the server development has bypassed database development by leaps and bounds.. And when someone posts a script, or a fix for something, there is absolutely no significant information how to apply said patch/fix/db/script... It is assumed that everyone is equally as capable of development, as the person creating the code.. If that were the case, people would all just be creating their own code.. Some of us can blunder through this.. some of us cannot.. If you intend to release something, please please release some form of readme, or notes to go with it.. or maybe adopt some standard for this.. so that every single download is not an alien structure, with no help included.

3 Apologies!

Please do not take this as a flame post! I am not tryin to stir a turd.. It's just that.. I see this as a community of people that has so much potential! with some of the quality coming from the server side of this little world, there is solid skill! and I have nothing but gratitude toward the people whom develop this project! You guys are amazing!! If that kinda skill / passion were spread evenly among this community, the DOL community could fundamentally take all EA's playerbase! Not that I am suggesting that as a goal. Just sayin! These are real community breaking issues.. the greed (I assume its greed) is causing this project as a whole, to fall apart.. I wonder how many possible contributors have given up and moved on simply cause of the lack of "give a damn" they feel on the forums?

Ultimately... Lets share! if you have a DB that isnt full of errors, and dependent on hundreds of custom scripts share it!! You will never make money from it.. your scripts for DOL are never gonna put a meal on your table.. Your fixes will never be stolen and marketed for make some stranger rich.. there is no reason not to share! There is no reason not to help other members whom are equally passionate about this as you! We all love DAoC in one iteration or another... We all.. well.. most of us all come from a community whom used to spend hours of our time helpin a stranger get a necklace for his template.. What changed? and why cant we be those people again? ..


My apologies for ranting.. I just felt I needed to say something!

[Tolakram]

Who is we? This is a community project, and as you might notice the community wants to take but not give. So really this is just another I want something post. We've explained our concerns about giving out our db to everyone, there is no further explaining to do.

[Marko]

I almost posted a snarky reply, but since I'm still just getting my feet wet with this project (I stumbled upon it earlier this summer) I'll just say what my take is.

As an IT guy myself, this kind of work takes A LOT of time. It also appears that there aren't too many people around that have the expertise to consistently provide big chunks of awesome sauce code or databases. There are a select few that have made some absolutely amazing contributions and the rest of us are massively in their debt. This time consuming, difficult, and nearly thankless work. And when there are so few peeps able to meaningfully contribute, it takes time for things to get done.

Anyways, I'm hoping to contribute some meaningful db updates since I'm quite familiar with SQL and MySQL in particular, but I also have a real job, a real family, and a whole stack of 'real-life' time demands that I have to deal with. I'm also trying to learn C# to get a handle on the code-base so eventually I can contribute there too - but it will take time, we're talking months at a minimum before I'll be able to hobble something together that will actually be useful.

I'd say just bide your time by trying to learn to do a few things yourself even if it's just 'simple' things. I know the guides are out of date, but most of the information is still usable with some sleuthing. I (or you) may be able to help most by updating the guides once we figure out a more up-to-date method to the madness Just a thought.

In fact I'm just about to write up a blog-post on some of those so-called easy fixes (like implementing teleporters, fixing horse routes and stable masters, removing duplicate NPCs, etc.) I was going to use a blog instead of posting here, 'cuz it'll probably be really long and Wordpress is a bit more forgiving of really long posts Once it's done, I'll post a link here to the blog and if it looks OK, then maybe we can move it over here somewhere (I really don't know what the protocol is for that kind of thing, like I said, I'm kinda new here)

So for now, enjoy what you have, maybe try to work on something you think you can tackle, and contribute what you can.

[pyrite1978]

Was not requesting your DB... And I expected a certain level of "butt hurt" .. but not so quickly!

You have stated why people wont share? what is this reason? I am not asking for your DB.. Or any DB in particular. I'm asking for some QC.. I will at some point contribute.. I am at present working on a complete DB.. to include everything up to but not including TOA ML quests. I am working on this alone.

But if there is a DB out there, a decent one,.. a DB that is JUST a spawn of SI? or a DB that is just a spawn of another region. one that does depend on scripts.. one that is not chock full of bugs.. why not share it?? why not release this to the public... so others can use it, This is precisely the attitude that I am talking about!

I am not above learning how to overcome my obstacles.. that is EXACTLY what I have done so far.. with no help from this forum.
and when I have a product, that is in a functional, playable state, I have full intentions to release it. But with this kind of mentality, assuming I am able to resolve some issue that others have struggled with, is it more productive of me to A: sit on my information, and direct someone to a 7 year old post that no longer even pertains to the issue? B: release a half completed DB full of errors with no info on dependencies, or readme to speak of? or C: genuinely help the other people with their projects if I am able? and one day release a complete DB with script dependencies included. If I subscribe to your way of thinking, then I may as well stop the work I have done thus far anyways.. and delete the local data.

If everyone is so scared that people will download without uploading, who cares?? this is not piratebay.. there is no ratio to flex your epeen over.. Who cares if someone out there leeches your stuff? Who cares if they do not contribute? If they are constantly askin for others and never contributing their own, how long do you expect they will ultimately be involved in this anyhow?

I'm just saying, there is fundamentally not reason for these forums to be in the state of affairs that it is! nor the general attitude that is generally displayed.

[pyrite1978]

I agree Marko, I can, have and will help people when someone asks a question that I can actually answer! And I am in no way tryin to shame those who have contributed, regardless of quality.. in my eyes a busted database contributed, provides more to the community as a whole, than a really good database/scrip that is left collecting dust on a server that has 5 players.. likely all admins.

And like you.. It will likely be a very very long time before I am able to release something that I feel is release worthy.. But I will.

And I will not sit in front of my computer.. staring at my new server.. refusing to share the things I have learned, or fixed/completed with the rest, simply cause I think some kid somewhere might use it to make a server of his own... Isn't that the purpose in the first place?!?!

I had not intended this post to be some kind of flamewar Or a "OMG GIMME YOUR SHIZ" post.. I just wanted to state my concerns.. and hope that some how.. I could break through.. even just a little.. and try to help others remember why we came here to begin with

[Leodagan]

I'm short of time this morning to make a detailed reply.

As being in the last committers of DOL on the last year, and an IT professional along, I feel pretty much concerned


For a quick reply : the DOL project is mainly contributed by un-experimented developers (no offense to Script contributors... but there is too much part of DOL that are un-maintainable and mostly impossible to rewrite based on the provided Object Interfaces...)
There is mostly no "project management", contributions will come when a shard manager fixes a missing feature and share it, but DOL bugtracker is not a guideline for shard admins...

1a - Database seems to have been built based on packet Logging, each table looks like a corresponding "packet structure" and some "extra" (like templates) are made on top of the basic schema to allow to handle some record humanly, so basically this has took me one year to understand, you can't expect what the GameServer is doing according on the Database design, query or records...

This is stinky but I understand this was a quick way to have a working packet flow between emulator and client, even some "unknown" packet attributes are stored as well and sometime it's sent to client without any logic just because some developer reverse engineering the packet code have noticed that these values are sent along with other known packet attributes...

1b - Live Like is always a big work because you need to stay tuned with official releases, and you need to review your server mechanics every 6 or 12 months, It's way easier to stuck on a choosen patch level and try to have all features working for this path base...

2a - DOL comes with no warranty this is the second sentence of the GPL , Honestly I hate doing support or doc at work, I won't do it forcefully at home

Questions with known answers or easy answers will get their replies in some days, impertinent questions or "write my script for me" questions will fall in the abysses

I use this forum like a mail box, checking new post every day, replying when I have enough knowledge

2b - User files and other resources (even some articles) are pretty much outdated, and the bad part is that this file repository is not really made to handle updates or maintaining packages/addons

You expect a community high quality Code with updated addons, documentation and support, frequent update but maintained ressources, available community to answers question when a shard manager must be developer/content manager/contributor/sys admin/hotliner

[pyrite1978]

Clears a little up at any rate.. I suppose in some aspects I may be asking a bit much..

But it cant be too much to ask for, to get a little tiny write up, explaining what someone should do with a bit of code/db/script..

Ultimately, You are right.. and I should ask for nothing at all.. as it IS a pile of free stuff its not like im paying!!

Still... compared to other emulator communities (with the exception of SWG) there is generally a fairly bad attitude around here.. And I just wish it would change

Years ago I started a UO shard.. I ran it for a year and a half.. When I was no longer able (military) I mailed the server off to my mother, whom ran it another 4 years. The entire atmosphere was different.. It was DRAMATICALLY different.. Night and day Different.. If someone asked a question.. they NEVER received the kinda cookiecutter responses we have come to expect here It was jsut ... different.. in every single way... And I understand that this is a totally different game/project/emulator.. and I also understand that the general mentality of people online has dramatically degraded over the years.. (a feature of the internet I attribute to WoW for no particular reason)

I just wish we could all be a little more warm!

But I digress.. Ill keep my mouth shut from here on out.. Ill help people when I can.. (If I can) and Ill post my questions.. (as redundant or asinine as they may be) and Ill continue work on my server, in hopes that I some day have a functional version of high enough quality that I consider releasable

[Leodagan]

[continuing]

So what about the active community right now :

DOL have little remaining active contributors, the target of the software is really small too, who else than an old DAoC fan with some developer knowledge (because yes you'll need to write basic C# for anything missing, even relying on the Script Engine of the Game Server...) would want to download the Server Package get his hand in it, fix some broken feature, then share ?

I don't think a lamba game developer or software developer would want to work on DOL just for the sake of participating to an open MMO project, people improving DOL will want to run a shard, or at least a LAN server to play with some friends, other lambda developer enthusiasts will mostly work on more widespread Server Emulator or MMO project.

So there have been a lot of contributions through all different shard's life, but if I watch just recent numbers, only 3 more supporting shards actives, a player base (which can reveal a contributors if a player is skilled enough to help some shard managers) which is more in the 600-ish at prime time when it was 1500-2000 some months ago (maybe because of Uthgard closing his doors...)
We won't have a miracle task force improving this project anytime soon

The latest update to packet code and client compatibility from Eden branch (an old-frequently-returning shard) aren't fully merge with DOL trunk actually, so client above 1.112+ can't be used on most Shards.

And a lot of Shards will need to fork some part of the DOL Core to handle some classes in a better way, improve Data object model, or anything, for my own shard I needed an own SVN to handle the changes that can't be committed to DOL core without breaking some compatibility with other shards or without scratching your head to make it work with current trunk, that's why there are some entire code branch available on SVN with various project sharing their server code in the hope someone can merge some of the updates with trunk...

And when committing to DOL if it means I should need to build the doc, howto article, readme, and check for frequent forum help request (without even talking of eventual bug-fix), when I already have my own shard to take care of, a world to build with some content on a pretty not cooperating database, a player base to give support to, I will pretty much commit only transparent updates, or small fixes to get away from the need of explaining the changes


---- What About Databases Sharing ----

Well we are in the "Game" community, some admins can feel like their database is their own hand-made content, or that their shard is unique for some database customization they don't want to share in the fear of having ready to launch "look-alike" shard spawning all around.

Storm has pretty much shown the way around this, Sharing basic assets like most game mechanics assets, but keeping some of the World assets filtered (NPC/Mobs etc...), aside from Public Databases that are community re factored with other contribution filling the Storm public release holes...

But Storm is not the "almighty database" it still relies on pretty old game assets compared to EA's Live server, and both it's code base as it's database content is not frequently refreshed to my knowledge, so even having a instant snapshot dump from Storm you could have trouble running this database for your own shard without heavy customization !

And for further databases contents it can be tricky to release for any use, any shard will mostly rely on customized SpellHandler or GameNPC subclass to run their world (Simply because a lot of specific NPC behavior is missing from Core and you need to implement them when building your world, and the SpellHandler code collection is pretty outdated and pretty much badly written so you can't fully rely on existing spells to implement all Live server's Skills...)

Database sharing would mean sharing the custom classes with it, custom code update that could not be implemented flawlessly in Core, and like you seems to want : doc and support with it !!
And having a pretty badly designed database will tempt most of shard managers to change some field or tables to fit their needs, leading to code incompatibility as much as database incompatibility ! (If a forked-GameNPC expect to load a custom datafield not implemented in trunk this will fail)

You can't expect contributors to freely give away their work when they feel it's their "unique-ness" and when they finally choose to share, force them to contribute a clean compatible code update with Readme/HowTo/Support reactivity !

---- About Contributions ----

You're not the first one posting a new topic on the board saying that they will update Database components, and improve DOL Svn, I've been through this too

As a professional IT you should know that won't be easy, the smallest database incompatibility needs to be shared with update scripts or doc, you would need to provide a "dump" for using your new layout but you can't provide a full dump, as most people will run a pretty much customized database there is no such thing as a "One True Dump", and if you commit a code update that needs heavy "admin" tasks to checkout and run you'll have dozen of Help Requests on board !

Recently I found a bug in DataObject Model, tables using relation but not implementing an UUID (GUID ?) primary key will fail loading the related record, it can be easily fixed but we don't have tools to make sure a self-made fix won't break anything else, so this won't go in trunk until I worked with it some more... In the meantime I could publish my new table dump (Let's say I'm working on revamping the Keep System) and even my custom GameServerScripts package to handle this new data, but without the patch to DOL Core SQL relation handling all this package will fail !

So publishing this package will just bring more Help Request from board, and maybe I'll have to distribute the C# patch without Committing until it can be validated this doesn't break critical code part...

Well after all this, if you still are pretty much motivated I think the first thing would be to review the "Code Guideline", to find some workflow allowing for packaged code not breaking user's shard every update

[pyrite1978]

I never said I was IT!! :p That was someone else.. I'm sure... at any rate.. I am still learning this.. trying desperately anyhow And for the time being I am not so much focused on the server core.. ehh .. well a little bit.. but not in any meaningful way..

As for my reference to "live like" server, I totally did not mean a emulation of daoc as it stands today :p I just get weary of OF.. 1.109 is fine by me. FAR more balanced.. classes have more utility.. semantics continue here.. I was just saying I'm personally sick of the emulation of OLD frontiers.. would like to see a little more modern up to date servers out there

As for the recent falloff in freeshard players, I think there is a little more dramatic reason for that, Uth went down, Genesis went up.. then Geneis abruptly went down.. (population wise) I know at least a FEW of these numbers went back to pay DAOC.. Te numbers are there.. there are plenty people still playing the game, paid or not.. But for whatever reason, a large portion seem to have decided, they rather Pay EA, then play free on whats provided. At anyrate, this is not a topic that should be continued

As for my contributions, I feel sure there has been many come and go to make claims of grandeur.. and never produce.
I may or may not fall into that category.. I am definitely working my ass off to get this server as close as possible to the DAOC that I last enjoyed. as things stand now, I feel like I have a fairly decent chance to do just that.. But I make absolutely no promise >.< .. It will not ever be a server that I myself host.. I lack the bandwidth, and I lack the options for more bandwidth.
And I lack the desire to deal with a lot of the hassle involved in server management. If was forced to come up with a reason why I am here, why I am workin on this DB... Best I have is, I want to.. I started, and now I feel i must complete.

And Lastly, I dont expect you, or anyone else to write a full blown user manual for every single thing ya upload!!
I hope I didnt come off that way, I just would like to see a little info about the file about about to mangle my DB with.. does it have script dependencies? and can it be merged? or does it have to be a new db,

I dont want a one click setup server .. Id play live if that was the goal.. I simply dont want to go through spawning all of SI in 3 realms. (which I have pretty much already done) if someone out there has already done the tedious generic work, I see no reason not to share that =/

I have a terrible time converting my thoughts into words that come across even remotely the same way as they are in my head >.<

But I think I have fundamentally expressed my general opinion.. And you make very valid points. I dunno.. at any rate.. I am not giving up on my project. At some point I'll either finish this and package it up for people to poke around in... or I'll wad it up and toss it.. But while I travel this dusty road.. in the footsteps of others before me, It would be nice to see a little more in the way of helping hands, and a little less in the way of "we already answered that 13 years ago, go find the post"

I understand from one perspective, it gets monotonous answering questions you may have already answered on several occasions.
But from another perspective, if the answers were as easy as browsing old posts, some wouldn't have been asked in the first place!

As I said tho... Ill stop whining.. and cope.. :p

[Graveen]

Hello,

Sadly Dawn of Light is not a top active project. Cause DAoC is now 12 YO and the community around is low. Honestly, the focus is actually on keeping DOL available (website, code, bugfixes, etc...) rather than big changes.

With more developpers, we could focus on long lasting bugs (which are impacting A LOT the whole source code, so not an easy nor funny job), on services (similar to what i did for mobs and items http://www.dolserver.net/models/list.php , we could have for objects and maps), and on many other things.

The database war is over. You can read my various answers about this among theses forums, and i would not reply over this. Latest is the awesome work by Leodagan (DoL pub alpha 3.1) and is far enough to show mechanisms and play. DOL team is not carrying about database.

Last, we are answering what we could, and basically, a topic 'feature X is not working' or 'I can't start MySQL' is not a relevant question. An interesting one is generally answered. Notice some particular code (ie relics) need, for the one that never worked on them, to focus on the whole code, and - personnaly - i rarely have this time.

[Leodagan]

I never said I was IT!! :p That was someone else.. I'm sure... at any rate.. I am still learning this.. trying desperately anyhow And for the time being I am not so much focused on the server core.. ehh .. well a little bit.. but not in any meaningful way..

Sorry I crossed multiple replies between you and Marko, and I must admit at 6 am I wasn't really paying attention
Maybe some of my replies don't really apply to your case then, or I admitted some experiences you may not have

As for my reference to "live like" server, I totally did not mean a emulation of daoc as it stands today :p I just get weary of OF.. 1.109 is fine by me. FAR more balanced.. classes have more utility.. semantics continue here.. I was just saying I'm personally sick of the emulation of OLD frontiers.. would like to see a little more modern up to date servers out there

Honestly this is the example of impertinent question, this board is about providing DOL code, to have some DAOC emulator that allows the client to interact with a GameServer that any people can master, if most of shard manager want to rebuild an old picture of DAOC this has nothing to do with DOL... Storm is the "Demo" Server and tries to stick with live when it's updated.

Maybe classic server are easier to maintain as most "outdated" provided resources applies easily to an old patch level and that available public database have way more stable "assets" in the "classic areas"

As for New Frontiers, you came right at the wrong time Even some New Frontier servers reverted to Old Frontier because of "New New Frontiers" that overwrote the New Frontiers Geometry data in Client 1.115, thus all fresh player using an updated client, even with a reverted Game.DLL to 1.109 will have the New New Frontier design in their game and not the "Old New Frontiers", and furthermore DOL is really not ready for 1.115 (maybe not far... but really not ready !)

As for the recent falloff in freeshard players, I think there is a little more dramatic reason for that, Uth went down, Genesis went up.. then Geneis abruptly went down.. (population wise) I know at least a FEW of these numbers went back to pay DAOC.. Te numbers are there.. there are plenty people still playing the game, paid or not.. But for whatever reason, a large portion seem to have decided, they rather Pay EA, then play free on whats provided. At anyrate, this is not a topic that should be continued

Yes it's off topic, but yes Uthgard had pretty much improved Code and Database assets targetted at Classic Client... The feeling while playing on Uth is pretty much the same than playing old classic DAOC of 10 years ago, it's even better with available recent hardware, and server customization to fill the gap of old DAOC gameplay... On live-level patch there is really not much contributors allowing to build such a high-quality server a lot of feature have been introduced since and never really mastered in DOL server (The quality of DOL pretty much decrease when trying to implement TOA features...)

As for my contributions, I feel sure there has been many come and go to make claims of grandeur.. and never produce.
I may or may not fall into that category.. I am definitely working my ass off to get this server as close as possible to the DAOC that I last enjoyed. as things stand now, I feel like I have a fairly decent chance to do just that.. But I make absolutely no promise >.< .. It will not ever be a server that I myself host.. I lack the bandwidth, and I lack the options for more bandwidth.
And I lack the desire to deal with a lot of the hassle involved in server management. If was forced to come up with a reason why I am here, why I am workin on this DB... Best I have is, I want to.. I started, and now I feel i must complete.

I'm not saying you claims too much, I'm trying to explain that in real world, even great ideas can turn bad
The best thing to do around DOL, with the current "Best Effort" Community that descibed Graveen, is to try to fix bugs with the current Core Code and Database design, or replace entire part with "Own Package" when it's fully tested (and then giving some hints about how to use the new code or how to take slowly advantage of it while still using some Old Code....)

I remember now you said you wanted to focus on Database part, and you're not much a developer ? well anyway the same trouble will arise, there as been many discussion on how to handle a "versioned" public database and how to improve it with the community to offer better resources to fill their servers, it's a pain in the ass to handle "Data" gathered by community, versioning system, like SVN for Code, doesn't work well in this area, it needs dedicated tools, you can't merge easily people work on a plain text SQL dump...

Even I, who work in professional IT, have seen really few softwares used to handle data/content changes in everyday databases appart from having "point in time recovery" features... I think it would need a lot of work to set up a revision system for a public available database...

And Lastly, I dont expect you, or anyone else to write a full blown user manual for every single thing ya upload!!
I hope I didnt come off that way, I just would like to see a little info about the file about about to mangle my DB with.. does it have script dependencies? and can it be merged? or does it have to be a new db,

I dont want a one click setup server .. Id play live if that was the goal.. I simply dont want to go through spawning all of SI in 3 realms. (which I have pretty much already done) if someone out there has already done the tedious generic work, I see no reason not to share that =/

I think it's there that my mistake about your work has made me go too far Documentation and Manual are the hardest and longest part of any computer work, and most of the work can be worthless without some record about how to use it !
DOL seems to never got to the critical point where enough user were trying to use the software with too much lack of manual and forced the community to write some

The object oriented/managed code environment of C# always provided enough "hints" to get the basic on how to use provided files... And these are typically the kind of question some developer will answer on board, it's not an hard work to track the object used by some code part, and check it against our dev environment to find the revision implementing the needed pre-requisite ! (about 15-30 minutes when you know what you're doing )

As for your trouble with "Spawning SI" Public Database 3.0 or 3.1 should have pretty much updated records for this, the hard part could be to filter them out of some other "broken" part of the database, something as simple as extracting some targeted data, cleaning some, repackaging in an archive and posting on the board would gladly be appreciated, even if not every shard manager does it, personally I still use one of these database implementation of shrouded Isles, and there is a lot of duplicate mobs in dungeons, and I still haven't took some time to clean my own database

I have a terrible time converting my thoughts into words that come across even remotely the same way as they are in my head >.<

But I think I have fundamentally expressed my general opinion.. And you make very valid points. I dunno.. at any rate.. I am not giving up on my project. At some point I'll either finish this and package it up for people to poke around in... or I'll wad it up and toss it.. But while I travel this dusty road.. in the footsteps of others before me, It would be nice to see a little more in the way of helping hands, and a little less in the way of "we already answered that 13 years ago, go find the post"

I understand from one perspective, it gets monotonous answering questions you may have already answered on several occasions.
But from another perspective, if the answers were as easy as browsing old posts, some wouldn't have been asked in the first place!

As I said tho... Ill stop whining.. and cope.. :p

Well a lot of people here also need to translate their words to english to even be able to exchange some experiences
A good shard manager like Schnitte from Brotherland is German and doesn't seems to handle english enough to participate in DOL development (from what I could understand as I'm French and can't understand german...)

I hope you'll keep your enthusiasm, we all started by whining when trying to help around here, a lot of developer have left over the years, or are not frequently participating on board, so it's hard to get answers to every part of the project.

Try to setup your google filter on dolserver.net to pick all data you can, download user file just to look on how they're built and hints they can give about how the server works, try to setup an own portal like http://www.etaew.net/daocdb/
or find available software that could handle a community database to propose them, etaew was a bit stuck around building his database some time ago, and I don't think he even worked on tools to finally import his data in a DOL shard

I think we could need a "Wiki" too I don't remember if there is one anywhere

Anyway try to have fun, good results are harder to obtain than just having fun trying

[Tolakram]

Was not requesting your DB... And I expected a certain level of "butt hurt" .. but not so quickly!

Others have been a little nicer, I will not. You are treating this like we are a corporation and we should do stuff for YOU. Not once in all my years with this project have I ever seen anyone who complains, like you have, actually lift a finger to contribute. It's always the same damn excuse ... I'm not a programmer, I don't know how, etc.

Your attitude is wrong, from the start. Lead by example. If you have time then do it, but don't dare sit there and tell US, whoever US is, that we should be doing it differently. You are also showing us how little you know about software development by complaining that older scripts no longer work. Really? Code changes, and these days it changes pretty slowly, but do you expect someone, anyone, everyone, to constantly come back and update older scripts to make sure they still work? Really? Each script probably needs one or two lines fixed to work, so if you need them, fix them, and upload your fix. That's how community development works.

I will tell you what you will become. You will work hard to fix your own db and scripts, and then justify not sharing, well, why should you when you had to do all the work because someone else did not share.

I dare you to prove me wrong.

[pyrite1978]

Others have been a little nicer, I will not. You are treating this like we are a corporation and we should do stuff for YOU.

No sir, I am not. I am treating this like it is a community in place to help one another not hinder. And I am not asking that you do anything for me. I am asking for some QC. some some form of release standard, Just because this is not a professional company, does not mean it should lack any form of professionalism.

Not once in all my years with this project have I ever seen anyone who complains, like you have, actually lift a finger to contribute. It's always the same damn excuse ... I'm not a programmer, I don't know how, etc.

Over the years, I have on several occasions made an attempt to contribute, if only my means of suggestion, or helping the random person with an issue I may be knowledgeable in.

Your attitude is wrong, from the start. Lead by example. If you have time then do it, but don't dare sit there and tell US, whoever US is, that we should be doing it differently.

This is an asinine statement. I am not in a position of leadership. I do not have the resources nor at this point the desire to try and afford some form of professionalism to this forum..

You are also showing us how little you know about software development by complaining that older scripts no longer work. Really? Code changes, and these days it changes pretty slowly, but do you expect someone, anyone, everyone, to constantly come back and update older scripts to make sure they still work? Really? Each script probably needs one or two lines fixed to work, so if you need them, fix them, and upload your fix. That's how community development works.

Precisely. I do not expect everyone to come back every time there is a software change in the server code, and replace/fix their aging scripts. I DO expect them to ad some form of tag/readme note... anything... really... ANYTHING... to inform the potential downloader what era this script actually worked in. now, lets say I do this.. Lets say person a writes a script to make pokadot dragons randomly spawn.. they write this scrip 6 years ago... today, with current build server, the script no longer functions.. all this is fine.. the problem lies in the fact that no one knows this. until they download it, and try it.. Assuming I downloaded this pokadot dragon spawning script, and I found that it actually didn't work.. So I fix it.. I make the required changes to make it function again, and re-upload it. It does not replace the previous version... as a mater of fact, It will be nearly unfindable.. and if it is ever found by someone, there is still the question of "wait. which do i use know? which version is better? what changes were made? will the new one break something? did the old one break something?" I am not asking for you to jump through hoops with everything here.. I'm simply stating that there is a level of disorganization here that i have never in my entire life seen before. I have through the course of just randomly reading forums.. found a plethora of things, that fixed various DB entries, or modified loot tables.. so on so forth, that I would have NEVER found if i had been searching for these things directly. I am not saying "I have the answer" I don't! but I have SOME ideas..

I will tell you what you will become. You will work hard to fix your own db and scripts, and then justify not sharing, well, why should you when you had to do all the work because someone else did not share.

I dare you to prove me wrong.

Do not proceed to tell me what I will become, and I will not proceed to tell you what I think you are.

As I stated before.. I am not trying to insult, I am not trying to start drama.. I see a problem.. I see that there is at least one of many solutions.. This kind of hostility in no way furthers the project, nor helps the community. It just alienates potential contributors. Yes,, I have seen plenty of "I want a one click server install that fully functions" and I know that is a silly request.
And occasionally I see the standard friendly response .. "there is no such thing, there are starting blocks to get your in, and they rest you have to do yourself!" and this is fine. but I also get a sense of hostility in some responses that is just uncalled for.

Ultimately. I think that the best course of action, would be to totally separate the script/db development entirely from the core
It would definitely clear the clutter. ANd would probably be a good step in the right direction toward organizing things. It would free up core developers from having to see so many DB/Script related questions? maybe? I dunno..

I have stated several things that I feel are in a state of disrepair.. Things I am in no real position to try and alter.. So I make an open proposition to the people who are in a position to make some form of change, and I am told to do it myself. Can you not see a problem there? >.<

Ultimately we all know that this series of posts will not further the progress of core or DB development. nor will it entice any fundamental change in mentality or structure. I don't feel it is in any way productive to continue along these lines, as it has devolved to a means of letting out steam or generally griping at one another. I see no real reason to continue this any further.

[Tolakram]

As I stated before.. I am not trying to insult, I am not trying to start drama.. I see a problem.

So fix the problem.

Now, what is your next response?

[Tolakram]

Oh, right,

Things I am in no real position to try and alter

Sorry, like I said, your attitude is wrong but I think mine is wrong as well, so I apologize and will start over here.

Getting a DB up to date and keeping it current is really really hard work and it's not fun or rewarding. At the time the decision was made not to share the DB it was because people WOULD steal all our work and make a server and take our limited population, a population we NEEDED to be able to test the code. Now we could probably release the entire thing, but we have released most of the pieces and people want help because they aren't even talented enough to use the pieces.

See, one of the reasons I get so darn mad is that I've been doing this a while and IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. No matter what I do or what help I provide or what part of a DB I release I can count on one hand the people that really seemed to appreciate the work involved and put forth effort to try and make things work. While I was ranting at you I found another one of these folks who helped me find and fix an old PVE crafting bug. Ironic, yes?

The other issue with releasing a DB is that it's work. Work I don't feel like doing. Our DB, and by that I mean Storm RvR, is ok, but it's not great, is missing mobs from a lot of zones, and is missing a lot of live drops. Perhaps if someone asked for something exact we might get further. You say classic sucks, well that's our most complete zones. What exactly are you looking for?

Ok, so your original message was directed at the community perhaps, but I'm not sure who is listening.

the greed (I assume its greed) is causing this project as a whole, to fall apart

That's an interesting assumption. So lets say I decide to share all of D2, including all the custom scripts that go with the DB. What might happen? Is it greedy that I don't? Is it not needed because it's not live like?